obdaddy
Here’s a rough transcript of the debate between me and obdaddy. It started in the comments of the video of Alan Grayson’s attack on the Republican healthcare stance. Wading through the hordes of commenters has proved impossible, but it eventually moved to my channel’s comments, and then to private messages. I know my grammar was atrocious. Most of this was done in the wee hours of the morning.
whats the matter, kid? too chicken to play with the big boys? post on the video if you want to engage with me, let me show the 6 people watching what a tool you are.
Look, junior, the tea baggers are protesting spending…of our tax dollars. Its offensive that they’re trying to co-opt the tea party name. as i said, their signs and chants are racist, not there mission, although I’m sure a big motivating factor is racism. You have Fox ‘news’ listed as your favorite news source, please don’t lie about not listening to their long line of [edit], beck, orielly, hannity, coulture, hume…And peewee is that knucklehead above this post, right there in your videos. [edit By 'peewee', he's referring to Steven Crowder, in this video]
And you’ve got to be kidding with the whole ‘liberals started the town hall fights’ thing. you’re prophets beck and limbaugh spent weeks rallying you sheep. Revisionist history only works if nobody’s paying attention. Now go to bed, I’m sure you must have a killer kegger to hit tomorrow, bra.
i said waterboarding and torture, son. Threat levels were raised before elections, trying to bring about judgement day (while impossible, why not just try and bring down the wrath of the easter bunny, too) by trying to start a holy war is treason, the question isn’t what I did for katrina, its what a cluster [edit] the bush admin made of the ‘recovery’, and are you freakin’ kidding me re: bush/ north korea? Kid, get your head out of limbaugh’s [edit], i promise you, the world smells a lot better out here. Bring pee wee with you, he looks as though he could use a good deep breath.
Me:
“whats the matter, kid? too chicken to play with the big boys? post on the video if you want to engage with me, let me show the 6 people watching what a tool you are.”
are you really that dumb? Why would I be chicken of anonymous Internet users? There’s limits to commenting on the actual video – from character length to numbers of posts. THAT’S why I posted on your profile, genius. [edit I believe he deleted those posts. I cannot find them on his page.]
Why are you calling me a tool? When did I insult you? When did I demean you? You have insulted me, been disrespectful to me, and used lewd slurs to refer to people I admire. You criticize so-called “teabaggers” for having hateful chants while making a post such as this. [edit Not sure which post I'm referring to]
“Look, junior, the tea baggers are protesting spending…of our tax dollars. Its offensive that they’re trying to co-opt the tea party name. as i said, their signs and chants are racist, not there mission, although I’m sure a big motivating factor is racism. You have Fox ‘news’ listed as your favorite news source, please don’t lie about not listening to their long line of [edit], beck, orielly, hannity, coulture, hume…And peewee is that knucklehead above this post, right there in your videos.”
Please indicate how the Tea Partiers are racist. I will admit that there is a significant difference in what the Tea Parties of today are protesting and what the Boston Tea Party was protesting – but why are you offended? Were you at the Boston Tea Party? Do you know how those men would have felt about today’s spending? I do. They would have been disgusted. Not because of “taxation without representation,” to be sure, but all – or nearly all – of those men were in favor of power belonging to the states OR of the centralized government still being extremely limited.
Again, please indicate, specifically, how their signs and chants are racist. And let me remind you that the only (former) KKK member who I know of in Congress is a Democrat. And let me remind you that we conservatives opposed universal health care, gun control, bigger government, bigger spending, higher taxes, and all the other liberal things under the white liberal Presidents long before anyone had ever heard of Obama. I am opposed the [sic] the man on nearly every issue, but it has nothing to do with his race. My brother is an Indian. Two of my three roommates are black and we get along just fine. I lived with a black family for several years and those four boys were like brothers to me. I have two friends from Africa.
And I’d appreciate it if you’d stop insulting my integrity. I can assure you that I HAVE NEVER WATCHED GLENN BECK, though I like what I’ve heard about him. I’ve watched Hannity two – maybe three times. I watched O’Reilly once (and that was only because my BLACK, OBAMA-SUPPORTING friend was watching it [on his TV]). I’ve never read Coulter and have only seen her as a guest on other’s shows. I don’t know who Hume is. And I assume by “that knucklehead” you mean Crowder. I do watch Crowder, but he’s a source of entertainment, not information. If I hear a “fact” from him that I’d like to use to support my arguments, you’d better believe I’ll research it first. Ditto for Mr. Conservatism himself, Rush Limbaugh. I have Fox News listed as my favorite news source because I like it better than CNN, MSNBC, or any of those other networks. I still don’t use it much. I use a wide variety of places for my information, but Fox News is the most recognizable to others, and that’s why it’s on my profile. I am a true Bible-following Christian, sir, and as such I do not lie, do drugs, get drunk, be racist, hate others, be disrespectful intentionally, overeat, give false testimony, or any of a myriad other sins. The ones I do do, I am ashame of and constantly strive to cease doing. And I do not appreciate you accusing me of the opposite.“And you’ve got to be kidding with the whole ‘liberals started the town hall fights’ thing. you’re prophets beck and limbaugh spent weeks rallying you sheep. Revisionist history only works if nobody’s paying attention. Now go to bed, I’m sure you must have a killer kegger to hit tomorrow, bra.”
Again, I’ve never watched Beck. And as for Limbaugh, I’m hardly a sheep. I haven’t even attended a Town Hall or Tea Party, though I wish the best for most of those who have. As for my plans tomorrow, I’m going to church and then – like a true capitalist conservative – I’m going to WORK. I have never attended and never plan to attend a kegger. Alcohol holds not the slightest bit of attraction to me – but don’t take that to mean I think it’s evil or anything like that. Drunkenness, yes, but drinking alcohol, no.
At the moment, I cannot think of anyone (aside from the obvious – Hussein, Osama, and the like) who is less suited to call me “bra” than yourself. So far, the only thing I can see that we have in common is that we are American males.
“i said waterboarding and torture, son. Threat levels were raised before elections, trying to bring about judgement day (while impossible, why not just try and bring down the wrath of the easter bunny, too) by trying to start a holy war is treason, the question isn’t what I did for katrina, its what a cluster [edit] the bush admin made of the ‘recovery’, and are you freakin’ kidding me re: bush/ north korea? Kid, get your head out of limbaugh’s [edit], i promise you, the world smells a lot better out here. Bring pee wee with you, he looks as though he could use a good deep breath.”
No, you didn’t. You only said torture. You never specfically mentioned waterboarding. As for torture itself, I see the benefits, but this is one of the extremely rare issues on which we may agree. I am against torture. A “holy war,” really? Seems to me that, while you may be right, threat levels would indeed be higher during elections – what better time for terrorists to try something?
As for the Katrina thing – look at yourself before you criticize others. Again, I ask you, what did you do to help your countrymen? And Bush, and the other authorities, cannot be held solely responsible for people who refused to listen to them in the first place. That said, I do think Bush messed up quite a bit with Katrina. But, please, keep a civil “tongue” in your typing.
Back to North Korea – No, I’m not. Name one time that Kim Jong Il shot off missiles during the Bush Administration. As for Limbaugh – I don’t take everything he says as God-given truth. I don’t even recall him ever mentioning North Korea in this context (I wasn’t listening around the time of the hole [sic] missile thing). I do indeed listen to him. But, I listen to him, and watch Crowder, and other things to hear stuff, but only so I know what to research. Tell me, do you listen to Rush? I’m guessing not, given your opinion. So, how do you know what he says?
Just for fun, let’s compare on of the guys on my side – Rush Limbaugh – to one of the guys on your side – Obama.
Drugs: Rush got addicted to prescription medicine that he originally needed. He then got the help he needed and has been clean since.
Obama is still a smoker, though he tries to hide it.Honesty: While Rush may not always be right, I have never known him to tell a lie. If you have, please inform me.
Obama, on the other hand, has told many, many lies (NONE of which I heard of via Rush). He lied about Selma. He lied about WWII. He lied about several of his acquaintences. If you want specifics, just ask.Speaking Ability: Rush speaks from his beliefs, his convictions. He may not speak perfectly, but he generally communicates his ideas well.
Obama speaks from a script, and not well at that. He mispeaks constantly. He can even read the wrong speech without realizing it!If you would like to compare them on another issue/trait/topice/whatever, just name it.
Me:
Stop using profanity and calling everyone who disagrees with you derogatory names. Gain the maturity of an average kindergardener or limit your social interactions to middle-aged male liberals who tell you how smart you are.
Wow, you really like to hear yourself talk (read yourself?). Limbaugh was addicted to oxycotin. Hillbilly heroin. The entire time bloviating about sending all addicts to jail. Obama smokes cigs? Really? You think the 2 are comparable? I did not run the govt or appoint my horse trainer as the head of FEMA, its an apple, and its an orange.I said water baording and torture, however only sadistic perverts believe that repeatedly bringing a man to a near drowning death (under the strictest safety and supervisory guidelines, of course) isn’t torture. I wonder who Jesus would waterboard? Your claims of not watching every commentator on your admitted favorite ‘news’ network ring hollow and false. The fact that I’ve heard the same bleeting nonsense that you spew countless times and seen it attributted to fox ‘news’ this and beck that tells me you’re a liar, or you’re so naive that you simply don’t know any better. Because of your young and impressionable age, and because you’ve just told me that your a sucker for Daddy’s religion (how many did you research or practice before you settled upon Christianity?) I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and go with ‘didn’t know any better’. As far as the racist thing goes, I believe I said the tea baggers were racist, not you specifically, but me thinks the young christian doth protest a smidge too much. I’ve already explained the racist tea bagger thing, lets see, what else…Limbaugh speaks from his wallet. His show’s single purpose is to sell advertising space, chatchkeys, books and pleather EIB chairs. He sells them to whom ever he can sucker into buying them.Hook enough suckers onto the show, enough of them will buy enough crap to buy a lot of drugs. They are all snake oil salesmen, kid, O’reilly, beck. hannity, limbaugh, oberman, Espn and the disney channel. Limbaugh’s the worst because he takes the impressionable and twists them into his own flock of bleeting sheep.Almost as shameless as a televangelist, except he does’t claim to work for God, just that he’s accepted His talent.To say that you’re able to speak for the actual Tea party participants is a statement of unbelievable arrogance and unfounded pride, and its exactly the kind of thing people like you say that drive people like me up a freakin’ wall.
Liberalism isn’t about taking $ out of your pocket. Its not a rich vs. poor, upper class vs lower class, tax vs print money thing. its about how does the govt collect and spend treasure. We believe that a society must care for the weakest among it. its just the dues we pay to call ourselves a society. We believe that a baby whose born to poor people, immigrant people, crack(or oxycontin) addicted people deserve every chance that you or i had. The conservatives of today seem to believe that that stupid baby should have picked better parents, preferably rich white christian parents, and why is it my problem that the stupid thing can’t find something to eat. Its about using the wealth that we have as a nation to care for our own children first before dropping bombs on children 1000′s miles away.
I think that if you looked closely you would find that caring for the weak, not killing the innocent and sharing your bread with the less fortunate sounds a lot like what you’ll hear in church tomorrow. Don’t start in on abortion, that’s not a left-right thing, its an incredibly personal thing that crosses the aisle. i will never ubderstand how health care for all people is construed as an evil by you people. Just can’t accept it. you christians (jews, muslims, scientologists, followers of Fartu, the Gas God of Burpy Bootom, whatever) like to throw around your holiness and preach about how yours is the only true religion (espacially the Fartu folks, they’re insufferable). What I don’t get is that you all claim charity, humility and, well, goodness i guess as tennants of your religions, yet so many fight even your most basic of beliefs when proposed by the Devil Libral. Just a heads up, it makes you guys look hypocritical in the worst kind of way.
You seem honestly trying to engage in debate, for that I appologze for my snarkiness. Your young and idealistic and I’m older and jaded when it comes to my conservative brothers and sisters stone walls.
I guess i kind of like to hear myself type too.
Me:
“Wow, you really like to hear yourself talk (read yourself?).”
No, I don’t like to hear myself talk. I write so much because I feel strongly about what I have to say.
“Limbaugh was addicted to oxycotin. Hillbilly heroin. The entire time bloviating about sending all addicts to jail. Obama smokes cigs? Really? You think the 2 are comparable?”
Oxycontin & Cigarettes: Rush started taking Oxycontin for its intended purpose – pain meds. He got addicted to his meds. He didn’t just start taking them to feel a high. The whole thing was hardly a portrait of character, but he did quit. No, I do not think cigarettes are comparable as a drug. I’m comparing character here. Rush quit his drug. Obama has not quit his. And, by the very nature of the drugs, it should be easier for Obama to quit (though I won’t argue that as the legality and availability of cigarettes would counteract its lesser level of addiction).
“I said water baording and torture, however only sadistic perverts believe that repeatedly bringing a man to a near drowning death (under the strictest safety and supervisory guidelines, of course) isn’t torture. I wonder who Jesus would waterboard?”
Only sadistic perverts believe that those who mastermind schemes to kill hundreds of us don’t deserve a little discomfort. They are not brought near drowning death. They are merely meant to FEEL as though they are drowning. Rough? Certainly. Life-threatening? No. Torture? No. And YOU STILL HAVEN’T ANSWERED MY QUESTION! Do you consider the waterboarding done to train our troops to be torture or not?!
I don’t think Jesus would waterboard anyone. I would not waterboard anyone. I do not think any Christian could justifiably waterboard anyone. But I also don’t consider the people we’re talking about here to be Christians, so it’s moot.
“Your claims of not watching every commentator on your admitted favorite ‘news’ network ring hollow and false. The fact that I’ve heard the same bleeting nonsense that you spew countless times and seen it attributted to fox ‘news’ this and beck that tells me you’re a liar, or you’re so naive that you simply don’t know any better. Because of your young and impressionable age, and because you’ve just told me that your a sucker for Daddy’s religion (how many did you research or practice before you settled upon Christianity?) I’m willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and go with ‘didn’t know any better’.”
You make no sense in these repeated attacks on my integrity. I admit to (and, indeed, am proud of) listening to Rush. You would be extremely hard-pressed to find someone more right-wing than him on Fox News. Why would I deny listening to them when I admit to listening to Rush? The fact that you’ve heard the same bleeting nonsense means that those folks (to whom, once again, I DO NOT LISTEN TO/WATCH) and I have seen similar things and have come to the same conclusions. It also means that I’ve conversed, possibly, with those who HAVE watched or listened to them. But I, myself, DO NOT. Think about it for a minute. Why would I deny this? I see nothing wrong with listening to Hannity or Beck or the rest of them, from what I know of them. Why would I deny listening to them unless I don’t? And are you implying that I’m so naïve that I don’t know who I’m looking at on the television? Because that makes no sense. Here’s another thing. I moved out of my parents’ house this past summer. They do not have a TV in the entire house. And all my current roommates are more on your side of the aisle than mine. So, I can hardly have made a habit of watching these guys without the technology to do so. As for computers, I can assure you I was much more interested in watching Hulu or playing video games in my parents house although I did also do a great deal of political research (and I don’t mean watching Fox News videos I mean visiting the Illinois’ government’s website to determine if allegations against Obama were true and other such things).
As for the religion thing, both I and my father (and all my other seniors in Christ) took the utmost care to ensure I was not merely being a sucker for Daddy’s religion. That is one of the commands of the Bible itself you must have your own root, and not be borrowing from someone else’s faith. And while I did not research/practice other religions before Christianity, I have indeed researched them since being a Christian. Buddhism makes no sense because Buddha himself said it wasn’t a religion and not to worship him look how that turned out. Islam makes no sense because you’re going on the word of ONE man and a power-hungry man at that. Feel free to suggest another religion. And let me state a very important fact, here. You’re probably, in your mind, lumping me together with the Catholics, the Baptists, the Lutherans, the Mormons, the Presbyterians, and all the other factions out there. I, and those who actually read the Bible, do NOT consider the overwhelming majority of these so-called Christians to be Christians at all. There are many reasons, let me point out a few. The Catholics call the priests father. A verse in the Bible explicitly says Do not call anyone on Earth father. The Presbyterians are unsure of whether Hitler is going to Heaven or Hell need I say more there? There are others, but I have the distinct impression that you’re not a religious person and do not want to get into a theological discussion.
["]As far as the racist thing goes, I believe I said the tea baggers were racist, not you specifically, but me thinks the young christian doth protest a smidge too much. I’ve already explained the racist tea bagger thing, lets see, what else…Limbaugh speaks from his wallet. His show’s single purpose is to sell advertising space, chatchkeys, books and pleather EIB chairs. He sells them to whom ever he can sucker into buying them.Hook enough suckers onto the show, enough of them will buy enough crap to buy a lot of drugs. ["]
What kind of Christian would I be if I were racist? That goes exactly against most of the Bible’s teachings. And white racists make even less sense since Jesus physically probably had as much in common with the Negro as with us white folk. The reason I protest too much is because I have, in the past, been called a racist for nothing more offensive than opposing Obama not because of racist comments or of hateful messages, but because I oppose Obama. Also, you call the Tea Partiers racist. The only thing that kept me from the local Tea Party was a scheduling conflict with church which will always take precedence with me. Therefore, when you insult or slander the Tea Partiers, you slander me. How have you explaine [sic] the racist tea bagger thing?! ALL YOU’VE DONE IS CALL THEM RACIST TEA BAGGERS. GIVE SOME DATA and stop being so vague if you want to be taken seriously, and not as someone who’s simply repeating what the Mainstream Media tells him. That’s another thing that grinds my nerves. YOU accuse ME of being a Fox-following sheep. What about that term tea bagger? That came from CNN. You hypocrite. I’m not saying you’re a sheep. But the criteria by which you call me a sheep labels you a sheep as well.
You obviously have never listened to Rush (not that I expected different). He is a capitalist and, as such, he is indeed in the business of making money. But if you think that’s his sole purpose, you’re a simple-minded buffoon. If money was his only interest, do you think he’d risk ticking off the powers-that-be so much? Haven’t countless others made similar mountains of money doing the same thing without the right-wing nut ingredient? And enough with the drugs thing. He’s not on drugs anymore, unless you count cigars. And he certainly wouldn’t need to sell anything to buy drugs. The guy’s filthy stinking rich as it is.
["]They are all snake oil salesmen, kid, O’reilly, beck. hannity, limbaugh, oberman, Espn and the disney channel. Limbaugh’s the worst because he takes the impressionable and twists them into his own flock of bleeting sheep.Almost as shameless as a televangelist, except he does’t claim to work for God, just that he’s accepted His talent.To say that you’re able to speak for the actual Tea party participants is a statement of unbelievable arrogance and unfounded pride, and its exactly the kind of thing people like you say that drive people like me up a freakin’ wall. ["]
Olbermann? Are we talking about the same Olbermann? Because Keith Olbermann is definitely on your side of this debate, not mine. If not, then I have no idea who you’re talking about. What does ESPN have to do with this? They sell sports stuff. Not anything I’d buy, but how are they snake oil salesmen? I am happy to tell you though, that I have at last found something we both apparently share in common a healthy dislike of televangelism. As far as I’m concerned, they’re all the wolves in sheep’s clothing the Bible warns about. To say that he’s able to speak for the Tea Party participants is NOT a statement of arrogance and pride at all. If it were not true, it would be, but if you interviewed Tea Party participants, I am sure you would find that, more often than not, the would, to some degree or another, say something like Yes. Rush does speak for me. For some of them, that might be limited to the subject of overspending. Others might actually be the sheep you accuse me of being and would blindly agree with everything Rush says. But overall, I think you would find Rush’s claim to be correct.
["]Liberalism isn’t about taking $ out of your pocket. Its not a rich vs. poor, upper class vs lower class, tax vs print money thing. its about how does the govt collect and spend treasure. We believe that a society must care for the weakest among it. its just the dues we pay to call ourselves a society.["]
I’m sure you do believe that society must care for the weakest among it. And most conservatives you find would probably say that a good number of the actual liberal ideals are worth something, but they just don’t work in the real world. Look at us. We are America, inarguably the most influential, rich, and powerful country in recent history. Look at the extremely liberal countries the third world corruptions; the collapsed Soviet Union; the individually impoverished China. And remember ALWAYS REMBER that no matter how good your intentions, you are putting the management of such care in the hands of politicians and/or bureaucrats. You call me naïve. You are foolishly naïve if you believe that politicians will every do a satisfactory job of handling other people’s money for a significant length of time. Look at all the glowing examples of the government helping the weak Social Security (bankrupt and worthless), Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (single-handedly spearheading the housing bubble), VA hospitals (encouraging veterans who fought for this country to commit suicide), and so on and so forth.
And let me ask you this: You are willing to support legislation to take Rush Limbaugh’s money, to take GM’s CEO’s money, to take money from small business owners, to take money from successful entrepreneurs, to take money from spoiled rich kids, to take money from bankers and all manner of other rich people and to use this money for the good of the less fortunate or the country as a whole. I’m not saying none of them should have money taken from them – hear me out. Let me ask you, what do YOU do to help those who can’t afford health care? What do YOU do to help kids who haven’t enough to eat? What do YOU do to give education to those in the Third World? It’s completely understandable if any assistance you’ve given is limited you’re only one man. But what HAVE you done? I am a teenage college student making less than $5K per year. I hardly am a man of unlimited resources. But I have sent money to help people in Kenya build their own church (which will be used for many other things as well). I have gone to Guatemala and helped repair a school, helped bring toys and foodstuffs to a poor child in the ghetto. I have given blood to those who will need it (and they certainly will I’m O – ). I have helped my father build a camp where children can learn to get along and learn skills to help them improve their lives. I have given my parents my full support in bringing a starving orphan to live with us and grow up in the Land of the Free. I have volunteered to help give a little joy to the aging and dying residents of a retirement home. I have kept watch over a poor old, blinded, failed-kidney man in case he needed assistance eating or using the bathroom. I have helped rebuild my grandparents’ small property in the wake of Katrina.
I do not say this to brag. You are an anonymous person on the Internet, what good is building my ego at you? Indeed, many of these things probably sound much, much more sacrificing and beneficial than they actually were. But I say this to make a point. I do not yet know for certain I will have to await your response but I feel somewhat confident in saying that there is a fundamental difference between you and I, between conservatism and liberalism. We both have pity on the less fortunate. We both wish to aid the weak. But I and mine do aid the weak. You and yours manipulate the situation so that others are forced to.
["]We believe that a baby whose born to poor people, immigrant people, crack(or oxycontin) addicted people deserve every chance that you or i had. The conservatives of today seem to believe that that stupid baby should have picked better parents, preferably rich white christian parents, and why is it my problem that the stupid thing can’t find something to eat. Its about using the wealth that we have as a nation to care for our own children first before dropping bombs on children 1000′s miles away.["]
Your statements show your ignorance. I can not remember his name at the moment I shall gladly research it upon your request but a liberal man set out to prove what you say here in a book. He conducted a study with the end objective being to prove that conservatives are far more selfish than liberals. What he found, instead, astounded him. With their private money (and, I believe, time), conservatives had turned out to be by far the more generous of the two. The issue is NOT whether we think a stupid baby should get help. The issue is whether we believe that WE should be the ones to help the baby, or whether we believe that the Government should take others’ hard-earned money and send it to that baby after pocketing a large portion of it.
And before you jump the gun on my next comment I am NOT saying we should not help those children thousands of miles away, so hear me out. Where did that wealth that we have as a nation come from? Did we beat up those kids to steal it? No. By and large, the wealth of America comes from the fact that we are a capitalist economy and that we work. And when someone works for his money, it is HIS to do with as he will. Do I think he should send it to those kids? Certainly. Would I think less of him for not doing so? Possibly. Do I have the right to take his money and send it? NO! Absolutely not!
And there you go again regurgitating mainstream media garbage. Rich white christian parents indeed. I do not care what someone’s race is in the least neither do most conservatives. Remember that Republicans outlawed slavery and Republicans pushed through the Civil Rights legislation in 1964. Always remember that the KKK backed the Democrats and that FDR shot down civil rights legislation before you start accusing US of being racist. And as for the whole rich thing the whole idea of the Republican Party being the party of the rich is preposterous. There is no such thing as a party of the rich. If there were, it would dominate the other party and have all the power. The GOP has many rich backers, and so does the Democrat Party. And let me inform you that if you think that I am the son of an upper-middle class/rich white fancy family you’re dead wrong. My parents, together, make a combined total of roughly $40K per year (with, until recently, four kids). My brother is Indian. My uncle is Indian (and, of course, my cousins are half-Indian). One of the two families we lived with in our childhood was a six-person black family who were as close as family to us. My father is nothing fancier than a carpenter a private contractor a laborer, if you will. And how, pray tell, does being Christian help get you fed? I’m afraid I don’t understand that one at all.
["]I think that if you looked closely you would find that caring for the weak, not killing the innocent and sharing your bread with the less fortunate sounds a lot like what you’ll hear in church tomorrow. Don’t start in on abortion, that’s not a left-right thing, its an incredibly personal thing that crosses the aisle. i will never ubderstand how health care for all people is construed as an evil by you people. Just can’t accept it. you christians (jews, muslims, scientologists, followers of Fartu, the Gas God of Burpy Bootom, whatever) like to throw around your holiness and preach about how yours is the only true religion (espacially the Fartu folks, they’re insufferable). What I don’t get is that you all claim charity, humility and, well, goodness i guess as tennants of your religions, yet so many fight even your most basic of beliefs when proposed by the Devil Libral. Just a heads up, it makes you guys look hypocritical in the worst kind of way. ["]
I believe I’ve already addressed that first part. And yes, abortion is a left-wing thing. Like all issues, it does cross the aisle somewhat, but it is without a doubt a liberal thing. But since you don’t seem to be one of the kill the fetuses! nutjobs, I’ll ignore that whole issue for now.
Finally, health care. Let’s get one thing straight. Health Care for all is NOTE CONSTRUED AS EVIL. If we thought for ONE INSTANT that nationalized health care would provide quality, plentiful health care for all, we would sign that thing into law before you could blink. The problem is that we recognize that nationalized health care will do quite the opposite it will reduce the availability and quality of health care. You’ll have the reliability of the Post Office combined with the efficiency of the DMV. Don’t look to Canada more Canadians come here for health care than Americans go there. Indeed, Canada is beginning to reverse it’s health care back towards something akin to our own. Don’t look to Cuba (in case you’re a fan of Sicko) remember that those people convert their HOMES into makeshift rafts to flee to our shores. And remember that we are by far the greatest developer of new medicines. You say how we are wealthy and should help those hurt overseas while at the same time attacking our own health care. Do you realize what constitutes a health care horror story in the US? Someone waiting hours and hours in the ER with a broken bone. Do you know what the horror stories are in nationalized countries? Ambulances leaving bleeding people at the scene, ten-month waiting periods for maternity rooms, waiting periods for attention on diseases that can prove fatal in far less time, complete unavailability of certain medical services. Now, you may disagree with me. You may think I’m wrong. You may think my facts are wrong and research is deplorable. Who knows? Maybe you’re right about some of it. Maybe you’re even right about ALL of it. But no matter how much we disagree, don’t YOU EVER ACCUSE ME OF HATING HEALTH CARE FOR ALL! It’s not a matter of whether we’re knowingly choosing the worse choice it’s a matter of whether we know which is the better choice. You think nationalized is. We think privatized is. I think you’re wrong. You think I’m wrong. But I don’t accuse you of hating privatized because you want less people to have health care! Don’t do it to me!
And let me point out a few things. First, we don’t all preach charity (Islam, to the best of my knowledge, doesn’t). Second, and this goes back to what I was saying earlier, we preach VOLUNTARY CHARITY. FORCED CHARITY is NOT charity! The Bible tells us the be generous to others, but it also tells us to give cheerfully, and NOT UNDER COMPULSION. If my tax dollars pay for some poor kid to be fed, good for him, but I have done nothing good in that situation. If, on the other hand, I buy the kid a meal, I HAVE done something good in that situation. And this way, none of the money goes to constituants or pork barrel legislation or research into scientific dead-ends or to funding abortion or to ACORN or into the pockets of politicians. This way, maybe I can feed two kids with the tax money I would have paid, instead of paying those taxes and having one kid get fed. We only look hypocritical because you only THINK you understand what we preach. And, by the way, I do not blame you for that. Like I said, the overwhelming majority of those who call themselves Christians are anything but, and give the rest of us a false reputation. For example, I’ve heard atheists use the Crusades as a reason why Christianity is hypocritical and false. But the Catholics abandoned true Christianity long ago when they started a priesthood and a myriad of other things. That’s like using the pregnancy resulting from two teenagers doing it to prove that abstinence doesn’t avoid pregnancy. It makes no sense.
["]You seem honestly trying to engage in debate, for that I appologze for my snarkiness. Your young and idealistic and I’m older and jaded when it comes to my conservative brothers and sisters stone walls. ["]
Perhaps I am idealistic, but I’m also what a lot of people would call cynical, as any discussion about the practical functionality of government or of politicians themselves would show. And I don’t get why you would be jaded. Also, I wouldn’t toss the young part in there. Yes, I am young, but sons often turn out to be much like their fathers, and my dad is both older than you and as idealistic as I am, if not more so. And I’d think I would have more reason to be jaded here. I’m the one being called racist for opposing spending. I’m the one being told that I’m an idiot because I think Fox is less biased than CNN or MSNBC. Just a moment there the first story I ever saw on Fox after starting college was an ANTI-MCCAIN STORY (and this was after McCain won the primaries). When did any of the other major networks criticize Obama (after the war with Hillary was over)?! I’ve seen both hard-right-wing conservatism and less-hard-left-wing liberalism on Fox. I’ve seen NOTHING but liberalism on the other networks and I’ve seen more of CNN than I have of Fox. Back to the jaded thing. Remember, I’m a college student. Probably eight or nine of every ten people I interact with on campus is a liberal (or possibly a moderate). Most of my professors are liberal. That’s another thing to think about when calling me a sheep. Am I so stupid that I would believe something a somewhat overweight guy three states away in Florida with no post-high school education tells me, while at the same time rejecting what my college professors tell me without some sort of research and foundation of my own on the matter?
Now, I really have to get to bed. Didn’t sleep at all last night and I’ve got school/work round the clock for the next couple of days.
1st the easy stuff.
The ‘snake oil salesman’ referrance was to point out that all of the media exists to make a buck, and that their content is dictated by the audience willing to give it to them. Espn, sports; Olbermann, sports and lefty ideas; Fox, right wingnut spin; Limbaugh, racist pap for the hopelessly inane, etc. They’re all just after your money via the advertisers who buy space (paid for by you when you buy their products) and the crap they sell on their websites.
Ok, now the painful part. Its painful to me because it seems like such a waste of an otherwise full of potential young mind.
” I don’t think Jesus would waterboard anyone. I would not waterboard anyone. I do not think any Christian could justifiably waterboard anyone. But I also don’t consider the people we’re talking about here to be Christians, so it’s moot.”
That says it all. Well, it says enough, anyway. That and your claim that your brand of boogyman worship is the only true brand of boogyman worship.
You said the point is moot because the people we’re talking about aren’t Christians. You also said that neither you nor Jesus would waterbaoard anyone. Forget the topic (waterboarding) for a second and lets focus on the truely evil point that you’re making here. ‘Anyone’ in your sentence refers to any other any other human being. Except to you and your church, in which case it only refers to the followers of your particular sect. Therefore, every person on Earth who doesn’t follow your brand of nonsense is less than human. They are ‘moot’.
I have to assume from your rambling rant that there’s no reasonable way (or snarky way) to communicate with you. You simply are too filled with hate, granted hate imposed on you by your forced indoctrination into your cult, to see any light. Just guessing, but gleaming from its absence in the other cults that you listed, Penacostal?
To condemn any group of people simply because they choose to worship their own particular boogyman in their own particular way is the pinnacle of Ignorance. The Sin of Ignorance in the face of fact, if you will. Left, Right, Limbaugh, Olbermann, these issues pale in the face of your multiple admitted ‘isms’.
Your religion is your own business, frankly I’m happy that you can find comfort there. I’m just as happy for any spiritual person who finds comfort in whatever they believe in, even the insufferable Fartu followers. Live and worship and let live and worship. The problem with all of you (any organized ‘religion’), however, isn’t your childish belief that you have a clue, its the belief that your clue is somehow the only clue and everyone else who doesn’t believe in your clue is somehow ‘moot’.
You’ll figure it out someday, Skippy, until then you just make me sad.
Me:
["]The ‘snake oil salesman’ referrance was to point out that all of the media exists to make a buck, and that their content is dictated by the audience willing to give it to them. Espn, sports; Olbermann, sports and lefty ideas; Fox, right wingnut spin; Limbaugh, racist pap for the hopelessly inane, etc. They’re all just after your money via the advertisers who buy space (paid for by you when you buy their products) and the crap they sell on their websites.["]
All true to a good degree. However, the snake oil salesman [reference] does not make sense unless whatever they sell does not work. Anyway, it sounds like you just hate capitalism. What are you doing in this country if thats true?
["]Ok, now the painful part. Its painful to me because it seems like such a waste of an otherwise full of potential young mind.
<quote from me>
That says it all. Well, it says enough, anyway. That and your claim that your brand of boogyman worship is the only true brand of boogyman worship.["]I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. When I say I dont consider these people to be Christians, Im talking about the waterboarders. I can hardly try to hold someone to the standard of Jesus is [sic] they havent [sic] decided to do that themselves. You STILL have not answered my question about the military. As for my claim that [my] brand… its not just some random claim. I understand if you think, perhaps, that Christianity is bogus and Islam is the real religion or if you think all religion is bogus. But, regardless of whether you think Christianity to be bogus, I can assure you that 99% of people who call themselves Christians are anything but. Its a simple matter of looking at the book and man they claim to follow and then looking at what they do (or dont do) and what they believe. If someone lets call him Bob gains some followers and one of his tenates [sic] is that you must not murder. If one of Bobs followers then murders someone, does that invalidate what Bob says or prove his ideals false? Not at all. The murder was a failure of the individual follower, not of the ideal.
["]You said the point is moot because the people we’re talking about aren’t Christians. You also said that neither you nor Jesus would waterbaoard anyone. Forget the topic (waterboarding) for a second and lets focus on the truely evil point that you’re making here. ‘Anyone’ in your sentence refers to any other any other human being. Except to you and your church, in which case it only refers to the followers of your particular sect. Therefore, every person on Earth who doesn’t follow your brand of nonsense is less than human. They are ‘moot’.["]
Again, I think you misunderstood me. I was talking about the waterboarders not the waterboard-ees. You are absolutely correct in saying that it would be evil to justify waterboarding (or whatever) someone because theyre not Christian but thats not what Im saying at all. Im saying that the people who waterboard them (or torture them, or execute them, or tickle them, for that matter) are not Christians and, therefore, the standard of Jesus does not apply to them unless they become Chrsitians.
["]I have to assume from your rambling rant that there’s no reasonable way (or snarky way) to communicate with you. You simply are too filled with hate, granted hate imposed on you by your forced indoctrination into your cult, to see any light. Just guessing, but gleaming from its absence in the other cults that you listed, Penacostal?["]
Im too filled with hate? What have I said thats hateful? Name one thing. My indoctrination is hardly forced. My parents (and others) never forced me into anything. I can assure you it was strictly voluntary. And were [sic] not a cult. And, no, were [sic] not Penacostal. You can look up all the denominations you want, but you wont find my church. Because were not a denomination. By the way, from what little I do know of Penacostals, they seem pretty crazy to me.
Again with the insults. Rambling rant? I took each individual thing you said and proposed an argument. I may have gotten a bit off topic once or twice, but it was 2 a.m.
["]To condemn any group of people simply because they choose to worship their own particular boogyman in their own particular way is the pinnacle of Ignorance. The Sin of Ignorance in the face of fact, if you will. Left, Right, Limbaugh, Olbermann, these issues pale in the face of your multiple admitted ‘isms’.["]
I do not condemn anyone because they have another religion, except in the sense that I do believe they will go to Hell on Judgement Day. But, in the world, I do not condemn them in any other way.
["]Your religion is your own business, frankly I’m happy that you can find comfort there. I’m just as happy for any spiritual person who finds comfort in whatever they believe in, even the insufferable Fartu followers. Live and worship and let live and worship. The problem with all of you (any organized ‘religion’), however, isn’t your childish belief that you have a clue, its the belief that your clue is somehow the only clue and everyone else who doesn’t believe in your clue is somehow ‘moot’.["]
I do not follow my religion for the sake of comfort. If we were in a situation like ancient Rome, where Christians were executed for their beliefs, I can assure I would still be a Christian in every accurate sense of the word, though perhaps a bit more subtly. Your statements are contradictory. You CANNOT be happy for a spiritual person who finds comfort while at the same time telling them theyre wrong for following their religion. The Bible requires that we know others are on the path to Hell. If we didnt, why would we bother trying to save them? And I hardly believe that non-Christians and fake Christians are moot. The Great Commission is to seek and save the lost. Another relevent fact is that I believe its wrong for a true Christian to even be in the military. I dont see how you can love your enemies while being fully prepared to kill that same enemy. Back to the moot thing – I merely think its impossible to hold people who dont follow Jesus to the standards of Christianity. Just as I wouldnt support laws to keep you from cursing, or smoking, or sleeping with your girlfriend, or beating the pulp out of someone who raped your sister (all of which I still believe to be wrong), so I wouldnt support laws to prevent people from waterboarding people who, may I remind you, would only be too happy if a meteorite wiped our country, for the purpose of protecting American (or even other nationalities) lives. I would support laws preventing actual torture (and, certainly, execution). But again we return to the fact that waterboarding is not torture. AGAIN, I ask you, do you consider the waterboarding done in training to be torture?
Seriously? Kid, you’re so hopelessly zombied… Ok, do I consider the waterboard training to be torture. Of course not. The soldiers know that its an exercise and that it’s (keyword coming up here, pay attention) training. It doesn’t compare. It is torture if the person you’re torturing thinks its real. Wouldn’t make any sense to do it otherwise, because then it wouldn’t be torture, it would be an agressive bath. Unless the victim believes they are being drowned it would be a useless way to get the victim to swear to any bs that the torturer wants him to swear to.
Let the religion stuff go. Calling missionary work anything other than condecending to the beliefs of others is folly. Its also rude. The fact that I can be happy that people take comfort in their own personal belief system without feeling the need to change them to mine is a concept that you have been programmed from understanding.
Not everyone believes that the bible is more than just a beautifully written collection of short fiction. You can choose to beleve otherwise, bully for you. Try not to bully others into seeing it your way, however, it just makes you and the other cultists in your flock seem petty and insecure in their own faith.
Me:
“Seriously? Kid, you’re so hopelessly zombied… Ok, do I consider the waterboard training to be torture. Of course not. The soldiers know that its an exercise and that it’s (keyword coming up here, pay attention) training. It doesn’t compare. It is torture if the person you’re torturing thinks its real. Wouldn’t make any sense to do it otherwise, because then it wouldn’t be torture, it would be an agressive bath. Unless the victim believes they are being drowned it would be a useless way to get the victim to swear to any bs that the torturer wants him to swear to. “
So…let me get this straight. Essentially, you’re saying that whether or not something is torture is subjective to the whether or not the “torture-ee” believes it to be torture. From a mental/emotional perspective, perhaps. So, from your perspective, something that gives someone the chills but inflicts absolutely no pain or lasting damage could be torture (I’m just talking hypothetically here – not specifically about waterboarding). That’s nonsense. And I would like to remind you that these are people who would have no problem blowing themselves up. If they can’t survive a little fear and severe discomfort, they’re pretty poor excuses for suicide bombers (or masterminds, or whatever).
“Let the religion stuff go. Calling missionary work anything other than condecending to the beliefs of others is folly. Its also rude. The fact that I can be happy that people take comfort in their own personal belief system without feeling the need to change them to mine is a concept that you have been programmed from understanding.”
It’s preposterous to call “missionary work” folly or rude. Put yourself in my shoes for a minute. Pretend you believe that these people I’m supposedly being rude to are going to spend eternity in torment. Pretend you believe that you know a way to save them from said torment. You consider it rude to try to tell people of this way? It would be the height of cruelty NOT to at least try to tell them. Or let’s put it in a way you may be able to identify with better.
Let’s say your in a school and you know there’s a bomb in the school that’s going to go off. Naturally, you’d tell everyone to get the heck out. Now, if you’re right and my religion is totally false, then that would translate to there being no bomb in the building. But even if there’s no bomb, you still believe there is. Naturally, you’re still going to be telling everyone to get out. If I’m right and my religion is true, then that would translate to there being a bomb in the building and the conclusion from that is obvious.
And I understand you perfectly. I fully understand that you don’t feel the need to convert others to your belief system. Your belief system does not require you to. I’m going to take a guess here that you’re an atheist. If so, your belief system is apathetic. Of course your [sic] fine with others believing what they will. What difference does it make in the end? But I do not have that luxury. From my perspective, it does indeed make a difference whether or not someone has my belief system or not.
“Not everyone believes that the bible is more than just a beautifully written collection of short fiction. You can choose to beleve otherwise, bully for you. Try not to bully others into seeing it your way, however, it just makes you and the other cultists in your flock seem petty and insecure in their own faith.”
What I’ve said does not require you to believe in the Bible – referring specifically to fake Christians. For example, I do not believe in the Qur’an, but I can still compare the beliefs and actions of Muslims and supposed Muslims to what the Qur’an teaches and determine whether or not they are actually Muslims. Doing so does not require me to be a Muslim or to belief one word of the Qur’an.
I do not “bully” others into seeing it my way. Name one way I’ve been a “bully” in this entire exchange.
Again, not cultists.
And your accusation of insecurity, again, is nonsensical. If I were insecure about my beliefs, I would tend to keep them to myself more. But I am secure in them and, as such, choose to obey the command to seek and save the lost. If that appears to you to be insecure, than you are blind man with seriously mutilated reasoning.
‘(I’m just talking hypothetically here – not specifically about waterboarding). ‘
You’re not speaking hypothetically, you’re over simplifying. If you need a way to wrap your head around being fine with the torture of another human being, ok, but its your ticket to heaven that you’re hoping that gets punched. If you’re right (and, kid, there’s just no logical way that you are. Its called ‘faith’ because a believer has to believe in the face of logic, reasoning and sanity) you’ll have some explaining to do at the old pearly gates.
If your religion mandates the conversion of others, its a bully. Cloak it in whatever rational you need to to sleep, but its bullying.
Security in your faith vs missionary work. I’ll give you that one, clearly those indoctrinated and committed to their faith can be forgiven if its the faith itself that’s the bully. I can write that off as ‘in for a penny, in for a pound’.
Repeating your ‘fake Christian’ comment is really just so sad. The arrogance of youth, i suppose. Believe what you will, but belittling the faith of others is petty and small. Comparing your faith to a bomb threat is an appropriate metaphor, however. Thank God we’ve moved beyond the days of our goofy-revelations-tooting ex-president. Bomb threat indeed.
Me:
“You’re not speaking hypothetically, you’re over simplifying. If you need a way to wrap your head around being fine with the torture of another human being, ok, but its your ticket to heaven that you’re hoping that gets punched. If you’re right (and, kid, there’s just no logical way that you are. Its called ‘faith’ because a believer has to believe in the face of logic, reasoning and sanity) you’ll have some explaining to do at the old pearly gates.”
Believe whatever you want. I never said I was fine with torture. I don’t consider waterboarding to be torture. And I’m not necessarily fine with waterboarding being done, certainly not by Christians. Your definition of faith is grossly innacurate. Faith merely requires that you believe something with a lack of evidence or of ability to prove it to be true. It does not require you to be contradictory to any of your things. And you contradict yourself. You say you are fine with others having their own belief systems but call them insane fools for doing so. I will have no explaining to do (at least in this matter) at the Pearly Gates. First because I’ve got no explaining to do and second because Judgement will not be taking place in front of the Pearly Gates. And Saint Peter won’t be there granting people access. That’s a made-up pseudo-Christian idea.
“If your religion mandates the conversion of others, its a bully. Cloak it in whatever rational you need to to sleep, but its bullying. “
My religion does not mandate the conversion of others. My religion mandates that we ATTEMPT to convert others. It is explicitly against any forced conversion. Forced conversion (such as the Roman Empire under Catholicism or Islam) would indeed be bullying. The Bible does not mandate that my friends and I grab some kid off the street and force him underwater for baptism. Rather, it mandates that my friends and I ask the kid (given that he’s of enough age to make such decisions) if he’s got any interest in learning about the Bible. If so, we are to encourage that, study the Bible, and hopefully convert him. If at any time he decides to cease studying, we would not be happy about it, and we would certainly try to dissuade him, but we would not force him at all. God doesn’t want anyone who does not fully want Him. Also, I would consider a country in which Christianity is established as the state religion and in which Christianity wields political power to be infinitely worse (as far as the health of the Church) than a country in which the death of Christians is mandated – quite the opposite of what a bully would desire.
“Repeating your ‘fake Christian’ comment is really just so sad. The arrogance of youth, i suppose. Believe what you will, but belittling the faith of others is petty and small. Comparing your faith to a bomb threat is an appropriate metaphor, however. Thank God we’ve moved beyond the days of our goofy-revelations-tooting ex-president. Bomb threat indeed.”
Arrogance of youth? How about a simple comparison. The Bible says in Acts 2:38 that in order for someone to have their sins forgiven, they must be baptized. Few denominations baptize people for that purpose anymore. Therefore, all those denominations are false Christians. Baptism comes, literally, from the Greek ‘baptismo’ meaning ‘to immerse.’ Others, like the Catholics, who do “baptize” people, just sprinkle water on them. That’s hardly immersion. The Bible says not to murder and to love your enemy. So when I see a so-called Christian join the military and shoot his enemy to death, I immediately make the connection that he’s not following what he claims to follow. The Bible says that faith without deeds is dead, but many who call themselves Christians do no “deeds.” I could go on for pages, but I doubt even a religious person would want to read that. Besides, the vast majority of those in my church believe the same, and we range in age from fifteen to the mid-nineties. While you may believe it to be arrogant, you certainly must admit that youth plays no part.
I’m not belittling the faith of others. I’m saying that they do not believe what they claim to believe. If they truly believed that Christ will return and that those who have not followed his commands will be cast into Hell, I would think they would be a little more studious about obeying said commands. As for other religions, I would gladly give sound, logical reasons for why each is false (except Judaism, of course – although for that I would give sound, logical reasons for why it is antiquated). Take Islam, for example. It has but one witness. Having only one witness would not hold up in any fair court of law. It has absolutely no evidence to support it. It mandates the abuse of women. Take Buddhism as another example (this one’s easy). Buddha himself said he was not to be worshiped. Case closed.
And before you jump on my “evidence” statement, Christianity does indeed have evidence to support it. You cannot PROVE Christianity with evidence. As you said, that would render faith unnecessary. However, there is evidence for the Bible’s accuracy. There is even genetic evidence for the Adam & Eve/Noah and the Ark situation. And there is no evidence that proves it false. I’m sure you believe otherwise. Please, list your reasons for believing so. If you desire more evidence (or more specific evidence) of the Bible being true, you have only to ask.
Stop using profanity and calling everyone who disagrees with you derogatory names. Gain the maturity of an average kindergardener or limit your social interactions to middle-aged male liberals who tell you how smart you are.’
What the [edit] is this? You PM’d me, Junior. And I believe that was exactly what I was doing when you imposed yourself onto me. I will say that I respect their opinions of the world a great deal more than I do yours, if only for the real world experience that they bring to the table. You, on the other hand qualify as my good deed for the day. Perhaps if a little sliver of real world sanity makes it past your Limbaugh/Jesus guard posts then I can feel as though I’ve helped the worls in some, small way.
I’m done with you. You’re clearly a hopeless cause, reciting biblical ‘truths’ as evidence for a dicussion on the merits of religion is an exausting pointless exercise. Your ‘facts’ are only such because you believe in them, to hold them up as supporting arguement to someone who clearly thinks that they’re hooey and fodder for the weak minded kind of re-enforces the whole weak minded thing. Had you come back with personal anecdote, perhaps an honest if subjective discussion on your personal reasons I might be more willing to continue. Genetic evidence? next you’ll be saying that the Theory of Evolution is simply a theory. Like saying a bat is simply a winged mammal that baseball players use to hit a ball.
