Israel & Judaism
This was more complicated than a two-person debate. I apologize for any difficulty in following this. The actual discussion (at least my part) starts down below a bit.
Keri:
One positive thing Israel has done: provide miles of wall for foreigners to graffiti.
Michael:
thats kinda rough to b sayin
Keri:
It might be rough but at least it is all spelled correctly.
Michael:
lol.. yeah my spelling seems to be going down the drain lately as i just dont see any point in tryin to write words all the way out since noone else does… (if you cant beat em… join em kinda deal)
Keri:
(by the way, I put this as my status because I noticed how many people think the wall graffiti is awesome, but the graffiti is done almost entirely by foreigners, not palestinians.)
LOL
Michael:
wouldnt surprise me… they have more respect for public places/edifices than most people do
Keri:
Plus the Israelis will arrest/shoot Palestinians who go close to the wall but not foreigners haha
Michael:
now that is kinda closed minded… i understand the security measures but even then they leave themselves open by letting foreigners access.. they arent too well liked anymore
Keri:
Haha no… the sad thing is that most people don’t even know the half of what the Israelis do. I understand trying to protect national security, but I also met a Palestinian man who was kept in prison for 12 years without a charge or trial because he was at a peaceful protest.
Michael:
it happens everywhere.. but since we are “at war with arabs” and the israelis are our political friends.. they make the palestinians look like the bad guys all the time
Keri:
Worse yet, by supporting them so heavily, we alienate the middle east even more.
Michael:
yep.. but its pretty much a lost cause anyways… thanks to a handful of radical muslims arabs are labeled as bad people and its not likely to change anytime soon
Adam:
I feel as if I am obligated to comment on all of your Palestinian updates. Are we all finally starting to realize why a lot of people don’t like the Jews?
Will:
”They shoot palestinians but not foreigners if they go close to the wall.”
That must be an incredibly culturally educated sniper who can tell the difference between a palestinian and another arab from 1/2 mile away.
Kyle:
Israel kicks Palestine’s [edit] all over the middle school playground. As it should be.
Adam:
I sincerely hope that you are saying that in jest. Anyone who honestly endorses that kind of behavior is incredibly foolish and an enemy of peace and civil discussion.
Danny:
peace doesnt exist without war sorry its a fact of life
Adam:
You are severely confused. Israel is taking all of the land from the Palestinians. Not buying, not negotiating, but taking. If they weren’t so imperialistic and blinded by the egotistical pride instilled by their religion (remember they’re “God’s chosen people” and Israel is the “promised land”), there wouldn’t be a war. So, do you support this kind of war? Peace can exist without war, it’s just that a majority of our species hasn’t learned to move beyond prejudice and violence toward rational thought and universal civil rights.
Me: [I start here]
Peace can exist without war, but only in an ideal world, which simply will not exist on this Earth. So, for all intents and purposes, peace cannot exist without war [edit I actually meant military]. Think about it. The most stable and most peaceful (at least on the home front) countries are the ones with the strongest militaries, or the ones under their protection (US, Canada, parts of Europe, Puerto Rico [not a country, I know], Japan, etc.)
If the Jews do have “egotistical pride,” it does not come from their religion – or at least, not in its correct form. Just read a few of the prophecies in parts of the Old Testament or a few things Jesus says concerning the future. Because of a number of things (among them, “the sin of Jeroboam son of Nebat”) God basically had enough, meaning that the Jews are no longer “God’s chosen people” (at least not in the worldly sense) and they certainly do not have his blessing to take possession of land – quite the opposite, in fact. The Bible says Jews will be constantly persecuted and scattered – and indeed they are.
Maybe Israel is a bit harsh, but at least there aren’t any Jewish institutions who essentially want to wipe out the Muslims (*cough* Hamas *cough*).
Adam:
You described my point exactly. We are one of the most peaceful countries (at least on the home front) because we have a military to protect us from people who cling to prejudice and violence. When we all finally grow up, we won’t need that military to defend us. Plus, having a military does not imply war. There is no evidence that in an ideal world peace cannot exist, and if we are all a little more optimistic, we could get there.
In any case, if you really think that the Jews don’t consider themselves entitled to the land and supported by their god, you should probably go over there. There is no ‘correct form’ of any religion since every denomination and sect claims that their’s is true. So, I am absolutely certain that at least one sect of Judaism will argue against your references (especially the ones about Jesus) and claim that they are still and will always be the chosen people (in all senses). And I am sure that some of them are acting on their belief.
With respect to Hamas, first, you can’t conceive of the possibility that there are some Jewish institutions who want to ‘wipe out’ another group? They might not act like Hamas but they still might have every intention – especially against the Palestinians. Now, I largely do not support violence and thus I do not support Hamas terror. However, consider this: Someone comes into the land that you currently occupy – where you live. They are supported significantly by some larger power, and start removing your friends and family from their homes, maybe with some force, but in most cases ‘lawfully’ – that is making your money worthless, requiring proofs of purchase of homesteads that have existed for hundred of years, and putting extreme restrictions on your day to day life. Wouldn’t that upset you just a little? And then on top of that you, unfortunately, believe that your god supports the killing of infidels. These two problems quickly mix.
By the way, there are a small fraction of Christian Palestinians living in Israel and they are suffering just as much.
Me:
Yeah, I realized that after I wrote it. Military fits much better than war. “There is no evidence that in an ideal world peace cannot exist” what?
Anyways, I didn’t say Jews don’t consider themselves entitled. I’m sure many do. I’m saying that if they think so because of Judaism, they’re wrong. They can argue all they want, but I think the Holocaust, among many other things, made it pretty clear God was serious about what he said. And there is indeed a “correct form.” Judaism is based on several books in the Old Testament. You cannot abide by those books without taking the Old Testament as a whole, and you cannot believe in the Old Testament without believing in the Bible as a whole (too integral: numerous Jesus prophecies throughout the Old Testament). Your assertion about there being no “correct” form is true ONLY if there is no standard with which to compare the various denominations. With Christianity, there is the Bible; with Judaism, there is, in effect, the Bible; with Islam, there is the Qur’an. Compare what Jews or Christians believe with the Bible, and you can determine whether or not what they believe is correct.
I’m not saying I can’t conceive it: I’m saying there aren’t. And when I say “institutions,” I mean significant ones (governments, etc.). I’m sure there are some neglible (in terms of numbers) groups who essentially do want to wipe out Muslims or whoever.
And if your referring to how Israel was established back in the post-WWII era, yeah that was wrong, but it’s done and you can’t change the past.
“And then on top of that you, unfortunately, believe that your god supports the killing of infidels.” Exactly. You sympathize with them? And “unfortunately”? What, exactly, is that supposed to mean?
As for the Christians suffering, I didn’t say I supported all of what Israel does, but I am sick of people acting like Palestine is a victim here (just as I’m sure you’re sick of people acting like Israel is a victim here). There is no victim here (in terms of countries; there’re certainly plent of individual victims). You’ve got countries butting heads over territorial and religous differences, not one mean, bully country picking on a weak, innocent one. But if I have to pick a side, I’d pick the one that isn’t bent on exterminating the other. Hypothetically, if Israel conquered Palestine and the Palestinians submitted, didn’t revolt, but remained Muslim, do you think Israel would go around killing Muslim Palestinians? Conversely, imagine that Palestine conquers Israel and the Jews remain Jews, submit, and don’t revolt. Do you think the Palestinian government would just let them be?
Danny:
i do support this war 100 percent
Adam:
I am sorry for the typo – I meant to say there is no evidence that an ideal world cannot exist, therefore so can peace. Also the ‘unfortunately’ means that I think that is unfortunate that they believe that their god supports killing infidels. In no way do I sympathize with them on this point. However, I do sympathize with the unfortunate conditions they live through. So if you were to pick a side, you side with the invaders who strip the rights of the natives and steal their homes? Or would you side with those who are defending their lives? It just happens that their religion is evil and it may appear that the only reason that they are fighting is because of their religion, when in some cases it is because they are defending themselves. Let’s be frank, the Jewish books are filled with the Jews EXTERMINATING people to take the “promised land.” I think you should reconsider your position.
Kyle:
Peace [edit], Adam. War is the [edit] answer.
Me:
”No evidence that an ideal world cannot exist.”
Almost all human beings are by nature selfish. This prompts many different behaviors, but violence is always going to appeal to some people as a means of getting what they want; and then there are people who just enjoy violence for the sake of violence. That’s the way humans are. The fact that safe/peaceful/”enlightened”/whatever-you-want-to-call it countries like the US still have tons of murderers, rapists, and the like is proof enough of that.
As for the Jews and the promised land, I can’t really argue that as my arguments won’t make sense to someone who doesn’t follow the Bible. I’ll settle just to remind you that the Jews were hardly the only ones killing and conquering during that time. Just look at what happens in the Bible during the times when God wasn’t pleased with Israel.
Adam:
Alright, I’ll concede that violence will always appeal to some people, but I’m talking about peace on a larger scale. It’s possible to form a world nation, abolishing war, and those individual’s who still commit violence can be quickly removed from society (as they are now – to some extent that is). And if you really consider the US to be an “enlightened” nation, think again. At least %50 of the American people literally think the Earth was created in 6 days, and about %20 of Americans think the Sun revolves around the Earth. Do you think the majority of violent criminals or criminals in general are “enlightened?”
I don’t really care if the Jews weren’t the only ones killing and conquering during that time. You suggested that only the Muslims are capable of these evils, when that is hardly the fact. Any people will lash out like this when they are treated so poorly and unfairly, you don’t think the Jews would do the same?
In any case, Mr. Rehder is either a [edit] or a severely twisted person.
Kyle:
No Adam, I’m a patriot. You on the other hand, are clearly an anti-semitic, communist, [edit], liberal elitist [edit]. I simply wanted to let you know, that as long as hippie [edit] like yourself are pushing their extremist agenda, right wing, gun owning, Christian conservatives like me will be there to challenge your sad attempts to undermine this republic’s global standing, and that of its allies.
Keri:
Wow guys, really?
Zachary De La Rosa:
holy smokes. I thought the debates on my wall were intense…
Keri:
Haha this is probably not the worst of them. Although Kyle probably made it the record for most name-calling and curse words.
Kyle:
hahaha i got kind of bored this afternoon.
Keri:
LOL well way to set records and offend my Palestinian friends all at the same time…
Kyle:
whoops
hopefully they can work it out, but I’m not counting on it. How’s the West Bank?
Keri:
Haha I really doubt you want to know how the west bank is considering your comments. But I’m great and I’m generally enjoying it, minus some home-sick-ness.
Hows your summer?
Adam:
I’m the extremist? Who said, “War is the [edit] answer?” Although your words are poetic, they are the epitome of avoiding the issues and maintaining a closed minded view of the world. In light of this, I can understand why you wouldn’t accept the possibility that an ally, maybe shouldn’t really be an ally. Or why violence isn’t the answer. Or why not holding some of your beliefs isn’t really so bad.
You’re a patriot? And I’m not? When does patriotism imply blind war? I support the freedom of the speech that makes us American, however I don’t feel as if you are using your rights properly. If all you can do is lash out without addressing the real discussion here, well, that doesn’t make me an elitist, that makes you a fool.
Me:
Dude, kyle. he’s obviously liberal, but being against israel’s actions doesn’t make him anti-semetic or a commie. as for the rest of it… jeez dude, what’s the point? you’re not going to convince anyone of anything talking like that.
Kyle:
I admire your restraint for not stooping to my disgusting level of petty insults. I really hate getting into these facebook arguments but anyway…
Since God created man, violence has existed. We are made in his image and if the Old Testament is to be believed, God is pretty violent. Violence is a part of our human nature and it will never go away. We in the first world/core nations generally don’t have to deal with the hardships that would drive a level-headed man towards violence. If you have food, shelter, and clothing, you have to be a little inclined to violence to begin with before you go out zapping dudes for there wallets.
The reason you think violence can be done away with, is that you have grown up in America, one of the easiest places to live in the history of the world. In short, there’s nothing here that would make a generally non-violent person want to be violent.
That isn’t the case in places like Palestine, DRC, Gabon, or 1994 Rwanda. And one day this country will falter as well.
‘
I’m not sure what your point was, if I’m honest i didn’t read any of your comments, you just sound really stupid so i felt like [edit]. Stick to sheep farming or [edit], whatever y’all do at State and leave the war-fighting and geopolitics to Tarheels. [edit The Pack is definitely better than any Tarheels]
Me:
ditto. minus that last bit of course. seriously, what’s his problem?
Kyle:
hahaha I don’t know man, but there’s no convincing people like that. So i just choose to either ignore them, or do my white trash, red-neck, red state, insult routine, which as you can see is always a crowd pleaser.
Adam:
Ok Mr. Patriot, why did the British Colonies of America start a war? They had food, shelter, and clothing, and they were generally non-violent. For the most part so do the Palestinians. So I don’t really see your point.
I really have no problem being persuaded, I just don’t see that you have any good arguments. Just because I am not convinced by you, doesn’t mean I can’t be convinced.
But, you are right – I do think violence can be done away with because I have grown up in America. I have experienced the freedoms that make this country great, and I realize that if all people had these same freedoms, maybe violence could be reduced. Is that really such a bad position? Why would you not restrain yourself from violence and try to promote peace using peaceful means? Please don’t excuse violence with being created by a violent god. If that is the case, you should realize that that god is evil and we can do better.
Kyle:
hahaha God is evil ok. We can only serve to better our own country, our own civilization. How do you think we achieve a quality of life that makes us not want to slap bitches? Most of the worlds resources for the last century have been controlled and utilized by Americans and Western Europeans. How did we create that relationship? Through violence. That is the only way that good and decent men are able to rise above the savages and closer to god. And it goes on to this day. And will forever. just fyi, I was referring to domestic violence in my previous post.
Adam:
I am sorry but that is a bleak understanding of our beginnings. Surely there was some violence, but to attribute the majority of our success to it is an unfair. We don’t cry when we don’t get our way and resort to military power instead. We use diplomacy, economy, etc. But that is a different discussion altogether.
However, do you think the only way good and decent men can rise above the savages is with violence? What then makes them good and decent and non-savage? How does violence make a man decent? What makes him decent is reason, civil discussion and kindness. And if I were to believe in a god, I wouldn’t want to get closer to him with violence! Are you even a Christian? [edit I disagree with a great deal of what Adam says, but this is a good question; and one with an obvious answer]
